I would like to know what are opinions on crossfit and implementing them in youth strength training programs..
Views: 673
Permalink Reply by Andy McCloy on My suggestion to Canute is to go out and do your own research by speaking with the best in the industry, Crossfit included, without relying exclusively on input from internet commentary. I would suggest that each and everyone of us provide qualifying responses so a general or semi-refined opinion can be collected. If for any reason to generate high quality dialogue and stimulate the need for additional research. Certainly, biases notwithstanding, we can all agree to this one point?
I can easily find a rebuttal for every response submitted here. The same holds true if I asked the CF-industry about conventional strength and condition programs and programming. By viewing some of the recent S&C Clinic videos submitted here on SPN I could easily suggest we start to scrutinize the programs at the various universities due to the lack of adherence to proper technique and form (rounded backs during movements/lifts, inordinate c-spine alignment during heavy lifting, lack of full range of motion, etc. Parents pay a helluva lot of quid to send their kids to these schools.I think as trainers & coaches we have a fiduciary responsibility to criticize both video and written submissions.
I appreciate points made from both sides of the fence of this discussion. Really, I do. However, Crossfit, like EVERY other program or modality utilized anywhere, all programs are solely dependent on the quality of coaching. To that end, I encourage all of us, fellow trainers/coaches that is, to consider different approaches for training all kids. Maybe an "out of the box" and systemic approach if not an all-out asymmetric frontal assault on existing programs for all age brackets should be considered e.g.
- A warmup
- Practice of a new physical skill or reinforce an existing skill/technique and form takes priority, always
- Introduction to a lesson in mathematics, comprehension, science
- Focusing / attention exercises
- Cognitive challenge
- Exercise challenge - a "WOD" or apply whatever term you like, but a vigorous exercise nonetheless
Given the horrendous rate of obesity and disease in the U.S. alone I firmly believe that the vast majority of our current athletic programs are a total failure.
As a quick reference for Canute, contact Chris Cooper (IGNITEGYM.COM) or John Brown @ Agoge CrossFit in Colorado for insight. These guys have mountains of data to satisfy anyone, and they will refer you to others outside of their organizations for a different optic.
FYI, anyone here is free to stop by my gym to WOD up or go heavy, power or oly (PETN1.66 CrossFit).
Be advised, we are technique nazi's so leave all snotbubbling at the front door (no offense here, just passionate).
Permalink Reply by Andy McCloy on Crossfit as a system I don't like. As stated the WOD .com programming is just plain silly. Not to mention I have trouble with Glassman...he's a clown and a slob. They've ran off every good Coach they had from Rippetoe to Robb Wolf (nutrition expert on Paleo style eating). My last knock is they act like Crossfit is some superior system! People have been oly lifting, doing BW exercises and combining it with High intensity cardio for years and years. What they have done is turned it into a semi cultish extreme sport where everyone wears the same clothes, and sips the same kool-aid! However, with that being said they encourage a minimialist intense approach. If u find a good CF coach....and there are many...they will do dynamic warm ups and focus on joint health, focus on technical execution of olys and strength movements and periodize their program. So if u were going to hire someone who is a GOOD CF coach tO come in and train your guys it could work. However, the CF system is only as good as the practitioner and stay away from the .com WODs. Although I haven't seen them in quite some time. It use to be very scary and sad.
Last thing is they do actually focus on strength and power. The program is based around strength, power, and conditioning. But sometimes it's like "shit soup". Throw a bunch of "shit" together and well....that's what you'll get.
Rick Burrell said:My suggestion to Canute is to go out and do your own research by speaking with the best in the industry, Crossfit included, without relying exclusively on input from internet commentary. I would suggest that each and everyone of us provide qualifying responses so a general or semi-refined opinion can be collected. If for any reason to generate high quality dialogue and stimulate the need for additional research. Certainly, biases notwithstanding, we can all agree to this one point?
I can easily find a rebuttal for every response submitted here. The same holds true if I asked the CF-industry about conventional strength and condition programs and programming. By viewing some of the recent S&C Clinic videos submitted here on SPN I could easily suggest we start to scrutinize the programs at the various universities due to the lack of adherence to proper technique and form (rounded backs during movements/lifts, inordinate c-spine alignment during heavy lifting, lack of full range of motion, etc. Parents pay a helluva lot of quid to send their kids to these schools.I think as trainers & coaches we have a fiduciary responsibility to criticize both video and written submissions.
I appreciate points made from both sides of the fence of this discussion. Really, I do. However, Crossfit, like EVERY other program or modality utilized anywhere, all programs are solely dependent on the quality of coaching. To that end, I encourage all of us, fellow trainers/coaches that is, to consider different approaches for training all kids. Maybe an "out of the box" and systemic approach if not an all-out asymmetric frontal assault on existing programs for all age brackets should be considered e.g.
- A warmup
- Practice of a new physical skill or reinforce an existing skill/technique and form takes priority, always
- Introduction to a lesson in mathematics, comprehension, science
- Focusing / attention exercises
- Cognitive challenge
- Exercise challenge - a "WOD" or apply whatever term you like, but a vigorous exercise nonetheless
Given the horrendous rate of obesity and disease in the U.S. alone I firmly believe that the vast majority of our current athletic programs are a total failure.
As a quick reference for Canute, contact Chris Cooper (IGNITEGYM.COM) or John Brown @ Agoge CrossFit in Colorado for insight. These guys have mountains of data to satisfy anyone, and they will refer you to others outside of their organizations for a different optic.
FYI, anyone here is free to stop by my gym to WOD up or go heavy, power or oly (PETN1.66 CrossFit).
Be advised, we are technique nazi's so leave all snotbubbling at the front door (no offense here, just passionate).
Permalink Reply by Adam Blalock on Andy,
It certainly should be superior. Are there coattail riders? Sure. The NSCA, CSCCa, NASM, and USAW all have their faults too. But, by and large, all colllegiate S&C coaches have a BS and MS in exercise science or related field (biology) and all of the above certifications. Most collegiate S&C coaches have also been through internships at multiple schools and a GA position for a couple of years. CF has a weekend certification that consists of two workouts. no degree requirement. no major S&C certification. no years of experience through intenships or a GA position. All you need is enough cash to get some equipment from Rogue fitness and a small warehouse and off you go! You're now a fitness expert!
-Adam
Permalink Reply by ted rendinell on Could quite possibly be the worst thing you could do. Tried and true body weight exercises for beginners. Then teach deadlift, bench and squat. Simple plyos, jumps should be plenty for the power side of things.
Permalink Reply by Joe Hallman on I train lots of high school athletes and would never use the crossfit protocol. No form its an injury waiting to happen.
Check out "Crossfit: Not Even Once" on Youtube. It shows the same video, but condensed and to the theme of "The Benny Hill Show". Pretty funny. If you don't know what "The Benny Hill Show" is...look that up to.
Chan Cho said:
Agreed with the previous coaches. Just to add another point, I don't think many of the people that head these crossfit centers are not able to teach proper technique or try things that are completely UNSAFE. Refer to the video. I know that they don't deem it is a standard clean and jerk but what's the point?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BDDyxXyf6UU
An athlete that I work with at our school said she participated in a Crossfit program last summer. I asked her how much teaching they did and she said that she had to go through a "foundations class" first before she could move on to the higher level stuff. She said she went into that class "not knowing much" about lifting but came out knowing "a lot". The first time I ever worked with her was just after she finished with Crossfit. I have to say her technique was pretty good. Now, I can't comment too deeply on the details of the Crossfit philosophy and methods because my knowledge of them are limited. But in this case, she came into our S/C program relatively prepared. She is a Division I softball recruit and is also a "gym rat". So I guess, the golden question in this situation is "How much was Crossfit responsible for her ability and how much is God given talent and work ethic?"
Permalink Reply by Glen Adams on cross fit circuit for a 12-13 yr old at my redneck facility
throw a rock bacwards, run get it throw it again x 6
drag that sled across the pasture (200 ft)
drive that pic axe into the ground and pull it out x 10 (dont hit your foot, im busy)
press that 1/2 broken caber (log) over your head as many times as you can
rest and repeat 4 times...quit worrying about your dirty , raw hands, you will be able to play X Box once you have calluses
now lets go lift in the barn where I will worry about your form
its what kids should be doing any how
no studies to back up any thing, just a lot of strong kids :)
Permalink Reply by Justin Frandson on Yea it is not all about doing lifts at all costs when working with kids and adults. A foundation needs to be build and slowly progressed upon. Proper rest between lifts is also important. Check the ego at the door and be more aware about building an athlete. Athleticism.com has an on-line program that will give you a better idea of how to achieve this. Enjoy!
A list of other things that cause injury.... distance running, Deadlifts, Backsquats, Snatch and plyometrics. Should we stop using theses tools with athletes of a young age? No. The big difference between injured and healthy athletes, is technique and instruction. CrossFit isn't as fault, the coaches are. Unfortunately CrossFit has a name for poor technique and it's earned that reputation. WAY too many coaches in CrossFit sacrifce intesity for poor technique. It hurts to watch some people do CrossFit.
The important thing would be to educate yourself on any movement or programming you're using and progress the athlete properly. Especially a young athlete. Look deep enough and you'll find that CrossFit NOT sport spefic, but great for general fitness. It's also constantly varied, but it isn't random. There are ways to periodize the training but it requires an understand of Ex Phys that most CrossFitters don't have or seek out.
Canute McKenzie said:
Thanks guys, I was talking to my business partner about crossfit and our company. I am totally against it because of the as many of you state, when working with young athletes techniques is a big concern. I think crossfit is a good high intensity muscle endurance exercise but, there is generally no real coaching involved. Many of the people I see in videos that do this type of exercise are avid exercise patron looking to get in shape, or a someone that was a long distance type of athlete that can do high impact,prolonged endurance training. But I still feel that this is an accident waiting to happen when fatigue sets in. I watched the video and my back is hurting just from watching the bad clean and jerk movements. Also crossfit in my opinion, still eliminates three common components when training athletes, speed, power, and explosiveness. Any athlete that has played knows when fatigue sets in you louse discipline in those three aspects, and I think doing crossfit training with young athletes can definitely cause long lasting injury..
Permalink Reply by Christopher Dayton on I agree with previous coaches. An athlete needs to practice specificity in the training room to create the proper adaptations to increase performance.. With crossfit there is no specificity, the exercises are meant to be done as fast and efficient as possible whether your form is correct or not. I would never have one of my young athletes use crossfit for that reason alone.
Permalink Reply by Joe Lopez on I am not a huge fan especially for athletes. I admire their passion and desire however, when doing olpympic lifts you should not be fatigued to the point of failure. It is an injury waiting to happen.
Joe Lopez C.S.C.S
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