I'm curious as to what are your opinions on squatting basketball players to parallel and if you do use the squat as a core lift. I recently swapped the squat for the deadlift with my baskeball players.
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Permalink Reply by Rob Panariello on Adam,
My apologies I'm not trying to be condescending. I understand your point about evidenced based research and I am just relaying the evidenced based and valid research documented on the biomechanics of the squat exercise by Tom McLaughlin, Raphael Escamilla, who are former powerlifters with PhD's, Loren Chiu a former Olympic Lifter with a PhD, and others all with experience in the lifts. All demonstrate that with the same load the deep knee bend position has the highest low back joint shear stresses, thus is not the safest position, still not meaning it is bad.
We can also "agree to disagree" as empirically in the clinic we see a lot of former powerlifters and weight lifters, some with minor musculo-skeletal problems, but many with joint replacements, arthritis, etc… as well. This certainly isn’t always the case as we have rehabbed a two time Olympic Gold Medalist in Weightlifting who upon O.R. observation had a pristine shoulder joint. That said, it is not unreasonable to assume (based on operating room observations as well) that when our athletes are lifting heavy loads repeatedly overtime (years) they may not only be breaking down and rebuilding muscle, but also have a breakdown of the joint articular cartilage as well. We as strength coaches are caught between a rock and a hard place as we stress our athletes with heavy loads in a controlled environment to prepare them for the environment of chaos, one we can’t control, the playing field.
I apologize once again for having offended you. Perhaps going forward I will limits my involvement on this website to reading alone, as the last thing I want or intend to do is insult anyone on this site.
Rob
Rob,
Your post did not offend me. Everyone has their own opinion and I love hearing the different points of views. I wanted to address the context of your post so I can make sure that I was covering everything on my mind at the time as a Strength Coach, as well as putting credible and relative information on the post because I am representing the school here and not solely my point of view. Again, no hard feelings... Great information posted.
Rob Panariello said:
Coach King,
Reading your last post I am not sure if my posts have offended you or not. To be perfectly clear, in regard to my responses on this post, I am not passing any judgment toward you, your program or any other coaches program. If you have interpreted my posts in that manner you have my apologies as that certainly was/is not my intention. I am simply stating my opinion of the benefits of the squat exercise as well as what occurs (i.e. biomechanics) during squat exercise performance. In recent years there has been a trend of many negative statements, "downplaying" to put it nicely and at times condemning, to be frank, the utilization of the squat exercise. Many of these "negative" arguments are without substance, opinion vs. fact so to speak. I am in no way stating that you are a negative supporter of the squat exercise, just that I am obviously a supporter of the squat exercise and post as such.
Kelvin King Jr said:Regarding the spine and load, I don’t think we as coaches are ignoring the back squat - more so providing alternatives to the squat, how the load can be increased, decreased, what angles can the lift be performed at and can we put the athlete (s) in a better position that will help them in their sport. I did not make the comment my athletes do not back squat because they do... However, it’s not on a constant basis and we use front squats a little more (more beneficial for my athletes at this point w/o going into detail and I am sure as trainers you all know). No work is being omitted, the program has its developmental stages, which can progress each athlete to the back squat, front squat and the various O lifts... My program is to make sure each athlete has an equal ratio of quad and hamstring strength to effectively execute a movement in game situations. You are correct on your comment regarding full triple extension and the full knee extension, which is important and just like the back squat, the front squats puts the athlete in a better position to perform a sport specific movement.
Rob Panariello said:With regard to the spine and load, we need our athletes to stress (load) their spine and associated anatomy as their spine will be loaded via a multiple of ways in basketball (or any sport). Physical contact from another player, landing from a jump, etc… will load the spine repeatedly throughout practice and competition. If the pillars of strength (muscle and muscle fibers) will provide both stability and protection, then aren’t larger pillars (hypertrophy) more beneficial than smaller pillars? Muscle hypertrophy is a result of the adaptation to (appropriately applied) high levels of stress. The application of intensity (loading) to the spine is necessary for strength/power enhancement via an adaptation to stress. What is dangerous to the spine is excessive loading. The front squat will provide greater compressive loads to the spine as back squats will provide greater shear stress loads. Players should be prepared for the squat exercise prior to high intensity squat exercise performance. There should also be appropriate intensities and volumes programed for squat exercise performance. Don’t throw the baby out with the bath water, properly prepare and program for the benefits of the squat exercise.
We are quad dominate. We have 4 major quad muscles and 3 hamstring muscles. Quad dominance is a natural phenomenon of our anatomy unless we purposely instill specific training methods to change this dominance. What is important is not the fact that we are quad dominant, but to ensure the appropriate ratio/proportion of quad to hamstring levels of strength so that the quads don’t become too dominate. The achievement of full triple extension during the performance of the Olympic lifts includes achieving full knee extension. The quads are responsible for achieving full knee extension, which is also important in regard to the game of basketball for both optimal jumping and landing (or any deceleration) performance.
Permalink Reply by Dennis Cuturic on This was a very interesting, as well as educating forum. I enjoyed everyone's opinions. I very much agree with Adam, Andy & Jason in that BB players need to squat at or below parallel. I am a firm believer in working throughout a ROM, in addition it will assist with recovery during the grueling season (increase blood flow, removal of soreness/waste buildup). For me, I make sure that if an athlete cannot perform a solid back/front squat with pain-free ROM, he/she will perform them either with a dowel or bodyweight only(stretching the immobility between sets: hip rotator, soleus/achilles, hip flexor). I believe progressions need to be accommodating for each individual ball player. One of the options that I can individualize for our basketball players is by performing hip/knee/ankle mobility exercises as a warm-up (i.e. fire hydrants). Most of our players have only one day off in-season, which ends up being Sundays (games on Wed/Sat). I know that on Monday we will be a bit sore and stiff, but this is the longest rest we receive each week, so I want to make sure that we get our blood pumping throughout the warm-up, making our squat more adaptive for each progressive set. This past Monday ALL of our men's players hit our last set of 3 @ 87.5% in the front squat. I think its imperative to prepare them prior to this with your off/pre-season workouts, otherwise safety can become a concern. There are a host of variables not even mentioned because there's so much more to it which we, strength coaches are not in control of. For example, your style of play (up-tempo/transition, half-court, pressing, etc..), and the duration/intensity of practice. If we were to have a 2-3 hour practice with an hour of film, then perform our lift afterward, I would not be able to ask the same of my players as this past Monday. You must be willing to adapt and change workouts according to what your coach and game demand. I have perfect plan in mind at the beginning of every season, but as I gain more experience, I notice that there always must be a back-up plan. Good luck to all of the you and I am always happy to entertain any questions or thoughts.
Here's a pretty decent article with some well demonstrated biomechanics regarding the stress points, torque, flexibility issues, etc., involved in the full squat. http://www.athleticdesign.se/athletics/squat_article_1_english.html...
As good a summary statement as I've seen.
That said, the emg shows maximal total muscular activation in the deep squat, but there IS a time and place for partial movements to emphasize, for instance, ONLY the quads, or ONLY the range of motion of the jump or particular athletic movement. But the deep squat, IMO, should be the core movement with the other partials for auxiliary training.
Permalink Reply by Adam Blalock on Eddy,
The last few paragraphs of that article articulate my point better than I did. The deep squat reduces stress on the back because the athlete is forced use a couple of hundred pounds less than he could in the "high school football squat" or 90 degree knee bend. Do shear and compressive forces increase as depth increases with the same weight? Sure. But what happens in reality is the kid cuts his depth and adds more and more weight to the bar.
Rob,
There are a few bright spots in the world of strength training science. I've met Dr. Andrew Fry, Brian Schilling, and Loren Chiu when they were all at the University of Memphis (Brian and Loren were pursuing their MS at the time). I was competing against Loren that day. I'm heavily critical of most studies that come out, as everyone should be. The squat gets a bad rap from the knee and back police all the time. Every study shows the same thing, forces increase as depth increases. Here is the catch; none of those studies, not one, shows that actual damage occurs. Now that doesn't stop the pencil neck from throwing his two cents in at the end and recommending against it.
Who is the two time gold medalist in weightlifting? Certainly not an American. Kono is in Hawai'i, Vinci is in Cleveland I think, and John Davis is died in 1984.
The top levels of sport cause the athlete to train for performance not health. Good luck in your practice.
It seems that the shearing force, at the knee at least, is actually GREATER at less than parallel because of the femur pressing down and forward toward the patella and accross the meniscus, and that as you go deeper (flexibility being the key variable) the shearing force on the knee is reduced, though the stretch at the patella is increased. It is also pointed out in a recent study that the patellar displacement is less on the deep squat than even the leg extension, for instance, making it a safer option in general. But the real key, as you state in your paragraph to me, is that because the raw weight is reduced, there is less strain on the back AND the knee overall!
Permalink Reply by Rob Panariello on
Adam Blalock said:
Eddy,
The last few paragraphs of that article articulate my point better than I did. The deep squat reduces stress on the back because the athlete is forced use a couple of hundred pounds less than he could in the "high school football squat" or 90 degree knee bend. Do shear and compressive forces increase as depth increases with the same weight? Sure. But what happens in reality is the kid cuts his depth and adds more and more weight to the bar.
Rob,
There are a few bright spots in the world of strength training science. I've met Dr. Andrew Fry, Brian Schilling, and Loren Chiu when they were all at the University of Memphis (Brian and Loren were pursuing their MS at the time). I was competing against Loren that day. I'm heavily critical of most studies that come out, as everyone should be. The squat gets a bad rap from the knee and back police all the time. Every study shows the same thing, forces increase as depth increases. Here is the catch; none of those studies, not one, shows that actual damage occurs. Now that doesn't stop the pencil neck from throwing his two cents in at the end and recommending against it.
Who is the two time gold medalist in weightlifting? Certainly not an American. Kono is in Hawai'i, Vinci is in Cleveland I think, and John Davis is died in 1984.
The top levels of sport cause the athlete to train for performance not health. Good luck in your practice.
Adam,
Thank you for your good wishes. Like you, I am very much an advocate of the deep squat exercise as well. I have published research in medical journals re: the squat exercise. For instance, after (squat) lifting 1000’s of tons of weight with a volume of thousands of squat repetitions over a 14-week off-season training period, there was no adverse effect on the anterior and posterior cruciate ligaments of the knee in NFL football players. I’ve also been using the squat in ACL rehab since 1986, convincing many a physician/surgeon it was a safe exercise along the way. In all my years of training athletes (including 10 years as the Head Strength and Conditioning coach at a Division 1 University) I don’t have any concerns with the deep squat exercise. Trust me I’m pro deep squat, and like you have” fought the fight” as well.
HIPPA laws prevent me from revealing the lifter’s name but I will tell you that you are correct, that he is not an American. He flew to the USA for his shoulder surgery and rehab. I will also tell you that with the 100’s of tons of weight and tens of thousands of reps he lifted in his career, his shoulder joint surfaces were pristine. I have a theory on this observation but it’s too long to list on e-mail.
I also agree with you 100% that no study has revealed any damage due to squat exercise performance. I also do not know of one that does. I can tell you empirically, based on O.R. observation and the rehabilitation of athletes that many (not all) who lifted (not just squatted) heavy weight over years of training did have some advanced to severe arthritis in some of their joints. You mentioned Kono; it is my understanding (I may be incorrect) that he has bilateral hip and knee replacements. It is also my understanding that Louie Simmons has a total shoulder replacement. Now that said, I do believe there is a study from England demonstrating no knee arthritis or knee pathology after reviewing the knees of members of a former weightlifting team 30 or 40 years after they were done competing. So as I previously stated, I am of the opinion, based on my empirical experiences that some athlete’s joints break down as a result of years of heavy loading, yes I am. Does everyone, certainly not.
I also agree with your statement “The top levels of sport cause the athlete to train for performance not health”. As I have always stated “sports medicine is not preventative medicine”.
My apologies once again for offending you, as it certainly wasn’t my intention. I’m just trying to contribute to the forum, as like everyone else, based on my knowledge of the literature and experiences.
I wish you much success in 2012.
Rob
Permalink Reply by Steve Curran on As someone mentioned below, proper preparation and progression is the key to successful squats, particularly for people who initially have trouble with ROM. To me, a properly (read: perfectly) performed air squat is the prerequisite, followed by overhead squats with a PVC pipe, progressing to the front squat with light weight, and ramping up in load from there. Barring injuries, everyone should be able to squat deeply even if only to maintain a healthy lifestyle. Forcing them to keep their heels down helps ensure engagement of the posterior chain. As a sidenote, why not add the deadlifts as an addition to the squat rather than instead of... On their own, deadlifts are an awesome for stimulating motor recruitment of the posterior chain.
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